Good article, gave me quite a bit to think about especially regarding where we went wrong. As a writer of fiction, I think some of the blame lies with fiction being warped and used to put stupid ideas into women's heads.
For example; Eowyn is a fine female archetypal character, yet somehow her choice to become a mother and wife is frowned…
Good article, gave me quite a bit to think about especially regarding where we went wrong. As a writer of fiction, I think some of the blame lies with fiction being warped and used to put stupid ideas into women's heads.
For example; Eowyn is a fine female archetypal character, yet somehow her choice to become a mother and wife is frowned upon in modern society, when that's the highest calling.
Yet what is more is that she is celebrated while characters such as Luthien remain mostly unknown, when Luthien is arguably the most important character of the Legendarium, and is the most feminine of them all yet somehow more beautiful and archetypal than any other.
You have Zenobia in Howard's fiction who manages to with a few words and a single confession of love tame Conan, and calm his fury so that he devotes the rest of his life to her. This is somehow scorned by many, when the choice Conan made is natural for him to do as a man, and is a testament to the purity and goodness of Zenobia. This purity and kindness on her part, should be encouraged in girls rather than telling them they can be Conan when they clearly cannot become him.
Sure, female warrior characters can exist, but the archetype should not be used willy nilly, but with practiced aim, and there must be other female leads. Or so I tend to think, maybe I'm just stuck in my ways and in my own particular style of writing them as a fantasy-writer.
I have always been drawn to female characters who are realistically strong, not bad ass warriors, but sly, cunning, clever women or women who are brave and loyal till the end; that kind of character speaks more to me than Ms. Marvel ever did
Zinnia, I don't know how you feel about Victorian novels, but the Anthony Trollope's Palliser novels contain exactly the sort of female character you like in the personages of Lady Glencora Palliser and Madam Max Goesler. The former in particular I seriously consider to be among the best developed characters in all literature. Anyway, I just couldn't help myself recommending those to you. They're so terrific but sadly almost unknown in the United States (where I am; I don't know where you live) except among really weird literary types.
Oh I see, funny thing is I've one bad ass warrior but she's also shy, and icy, but trying to improve in one story. She's not strong as Ms Marvel but rather a spear-woman who will be struggling alongside her love interest and his two friends. She's more like Eowyn than anything though slightly less perceptive but she gets there.
And I've two shy and clever, if brave and loyal girls in another story, one of them is primarily loyal to her surrogate older brother, and to her younger brother.
Kudos for the Howard reference. Although, to be fair, in that story Conan found himself in a desperate situation because he was unmarried, without an heir, and therefore not part of a dynasty that his followers could rally around. So there may have been a bit of calculation going on. On his part, I mean.
Zenobia, as you say, demonstrated both purity and goodness. But she was not a modern "girl-boss" (how I despise that term). She wasn't a warrior, and did not go around beating up a dozen men, each twice her size, as modern feminists would have it. She did supply Conan a poignard, though, when he was weaponless, which ended up saving his life.
Both excellent points, I really like Howard's work and have written on it in my substack, but I do think that Howard was looking at things from a certain chivalric literary perspective due to how he was trying to sell the book to an English & European audience at the time. Zenobia seems to have been inspired by the love of his life, and so I think it was a decision of sentimentality and calculation on Conan's part.
Good article, gave me quite a bit to think about especially regarding where we went wrong. As a writer of fiction, I think some of the blame lies with fiction being warped and used to put stupid ideas into women's heads.
For example; Eowyn is a fine female archetypal character, yet somehow her choice to become a mother and wife is frowned upon in modern society, when that's the highest calling.
Yet what is more is that she is celebrated while characters such as Luthien remain mostly unknown, when Luthien is arguably the most important character of the Legendarium, and is the most feminine of them all yet somehow more beautiful and archetypal than any other.
You have Zenobia in Howard's fiction who manages to with a few words and a single confession of love tame Conan, and calm his fury so that he devotes the rest of his life to her. This is somehow scorned by many, when the choice Conan made is natural for him to do as a man, and is a testament to the purity and goodness of Zenobia. This purity and kindness on her part, should be encouraged in girls rather than telling them they can be Conan when they clearly cannot become him.
Sure, female warrior characters can exist, but the archetype should not be used willy nilly, but with practiced aim, and there must be other female leads. Or so I tend to think, maybe I'm just stuck in my ways and in my own particular style of writing them as a fantasy-writer.
I have always been drawn to female characters who are realistically strong, not bad ass warriors, but sly, cunning, clever women or women who are brave and loyal till the end; that kind of character speaks more to me than Ms. Marvel ever did
Zinnia, I don't know how you feel about Victorian novels, but the Anthony Trollope's Palliser novels contain exactly the sort of female character you like in the personages of Lady Glencora Palliser and Madam Max Goesler. The former in particular I seriously consider to be among the best developed characters in all literature. Anyway, I just couldn't help myself recommending those to you. They're so terrific but sadly almost unknown in the United States (where I am; I don't know where you live) except among really weird literary types.
There is a well done BBC series from the 70s called The Pallisers I recommend as well. Glencora is great.
Oh I see, funny thing is I've one bad ass warrior but she's also shy, and icy, but trying to improve in one story. She's not strong as Ms Marvel but rather a spear-woman who will be struggling alongside her love interest and his two friends. She's more like Eowyn than anything though slightly less perceptive but she gets there.
And I've two shy and clever, if brave and loyal girls in another story, one of them is primarily loyal to her surrogate older brother, and to her younger brother.
I think you've taste that is similar to my own.
If you’ve never seen Alias Grace, I recommend it then.
Kudos for the Howard reference. Although, to be fair, in that story Conan found himself in a desperate situation because he was unmarried, without an heir, and therefore not part of a dynasty that his followers could rally around. So there may have been a bit of calculation going on. On his part, I mean.
Zenobia, as you say, demonstrated both purity and goodness. But she was not a modern "girl-boss" (how I despise that term). She wasn't a warrior, and did not go around beating up a dozen men, each twice her size, as modern feminists would have it. She did supply Conan a poignard, though, when he was weaponless, which ended up saving his life.
Both excellent points, I really like Howard's work and have written on it in my substack, but I do think that Howard was looking at things from a certain chivalric literary perspective due to how he was trying to sell the book to an English & European audience at the time. Zenobia seems to have been inspired by the love of his life, and so I think it was a decision of sentimentality and calculation on Conan's part.
Same! And love your username, working on a podcast of the Silm and Beren & Luthien in particular